clomid morning or night pct

Well Red Supplements went out of business, so Testogen is a good alternative. Of course, treatment will vary from person to person. It has anti-estrogen effects and was originally developed as a fertility medication for women who do not ovulate normally. So needless to say, you will want to completely avoid gyno rearing its head while youre on steroids, but if it does start up then getting on top of it with Clomid and other drugs can ensure that all symptoms will disappear. I just bought rad-140 from proven peptides but I still dont know which pct should i buy. Bodybuilders can take Clomid every day without experiencing any problems, save from the side effects of the medication itself. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Oh I need to change this, man. Unfortunately, Clomid is not legal to have without a doctors prescription. Clomid, or more specifically, clomiphene citrate, belongs to a class of compounds known as selective estrogen receptor modulators. Novice Join Date Oct 2011 Posts 106 Rep Power 11. The information on this page is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. When you get on steroids, prohormones, or SARMs, your bodys natural testosterone production is going to slightly decrease. I have also had trouble falling asleep - even since I stopped taking it. If your cycle is canceled, as tempting as it may be to ignore your provider and have sex anyway, you should take your provider's warnings seriously. Rachel uses her own experiences with infertility to write compassionate, practical, and supportive articles. No crazy headache. HCG, N. My second month at 50mg I did morning as well - same thing, except the headaches lasted longer. Its not only during PCT that Clomid is extremely helpful though, with this being a medication that is often utilized during a steroid cycle as well to combat some of the worst side effects that we all want to avoid. Whether youre doing steroids, SARMs, or prohormones, youre probably going to need to do a post cycle therapy (PCT) at some point. Night! This is the reason why PCT is so important. I'd say you're ok but your doctor knows you and your situation best. That's what my RE office told me - that I had to take it at the same time of day, whatever I decided that to be. Some people have no s/eat all. Just make sure you get a good brand that is 3rd party verified, or that you trust. Clomid is usually used at a low dose during an anabolic steroid cycle with the purpose of protecting you from estrogenic effects. PCT starts tomorrow. A Clomid PCT should last about 4 weeks, or one month. But, that might be b/c I am off right now and sleeping in every day. Common PCT's include Nolvadex, Clomid Therapy, and other testosterone boosting ingredients. Unless your healthcare provider tells you otherwise, you should begin having sex every other day or every day, starting 3 days after you take your last Clomid pill. At the end of this article, I will also show you where to buy pure Clomid at a rock-bottom price. Clomid is considered one of the more powerful PCT options and is used by people who are doing more advanced steroids or stacking multiple steroids. Dont worry, Ill show you a good source of Clomid by the end of this article, you wont have to go through any hoops, and it will be as easy as taking candy from a baby. Clomid usually comes in pill form and is taken orally as it has good bioavailability. The most important thing is to take it at the same time each day. Some people might want to take Nolvadex or Clomid for their SARMs post cycle therapy, but in my opinion, this is overkill. The whole idea behind post cycle therapy, is it minimizes the recovery time after a SARMs, steroids, or prohormone cycle. Clomid PCT, sometimes called Clomid Therapy, is one of the most effective post cycle therapies on the market. Group Leaders arent expected to spend any additional time in the community, and are not held to a set schedule. Despite this, it is still possible to experience some side effects when using Clomid but keep in mind that many people will have no side effects at all. The ultrasound technician will measure the growing follicles, and your healthcare provider will decide based on their growth when to time a trigger shot (if you're having one), an IUI, or intercourse for the cycle. As with other SERMs, Clomid works by blocking the effects of estrogen . The way that Testogen works is it simply gives your body the ingredients it needs to decrease estrogen and boost testosterone. It sounds like a prohormone, though. A 4-8 week post cycle therapy is considered standard with 8 weeks mainly considered by those bodybuilders who are using the most powerful steroids. Remember that you can try againand that sometimes treatment needs adjustments before you reach success. Start your Clomid PCT 5 days post cycle. Clomid is also often called just Clomiphene for short. Headaches, hot flushes, diarrhea and nausea are other possibilities although again these are mainly reported in the women taking Clomid. When you take this medication, it will induce a period. Similar to Clomid, Nolvadex is also a selective estrogen receptor modulator. If you have irregular periods or you do not get a period, your healthcare provider can perform a "random start." Dr. Wayne Ingram answered Specializes in Obstetrics and Gynecology Anytime: Anytime that you can get it down without issues, as it is effective as long as it is taken daily. Im always trying to keep an eye on the comments here ;). Fatigue is a less common side effect of taking Clomid. In this case, they are looking for a larger cyst. The same problem as with Nolvadex your doctor is unlikely to prescribe Clomid to you, since its usually only reserved for women. By Rachel Gurevich, RN i hav been on clomid (clomiphene) for three months, but d fourth month, i didnt take it. The first day of bleeding is called cycle day 1. The Danger Of PCT PCT is not without its poison, as SERMs - the compounds used for PCT - have side effects of their own. For Female Infertility "Diagnosed with PCOS and we were struggling to get pregnant We used Clomid 100mg in June 2020 after trying to conceive for 10 years. Some of them recommend 25mgs a day, while others bolster that number up to 300mgs a day. The pharmacist must give you the exact medication your doctor prescribed. Few sides during cycle, lots of strength gains. After this four week PCT, you dont have to take Clomid anymore. To conclude, use Clomid with care, be aware of its safety profile and make sure to stick to the recommended dosages and guidelines. 1 Your healthcare provider may order a trigger shot to help better time for IUI or intercourse or to give your ovaries a little extra boost. Check out my list of recommended companies that I've personally tested. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. Medications for inducing ovulation: A guide for patients. Pharma. It only works during the cycle in which you take it. I never asked my doctor, I just took it before bed because I was afraid it would keep me up but now I'm wondering if it makes a difference. Makes no difference due to its long half life. I didn't have any other side effects. ConnCottager July 2010 So I'm taking the plunge with my first round of Clomid today. In other words, not only does it help get your hormone levels back to normal, but it also helps you keep most of your gains. If you have never had an erection and your genitals appear like that of a child, you MUST see an Endocrinologist. As your testosterone is suppressed (temporarily), much of that muscle will be lost. But it works for a lot of people! Acne. This is something I wondered at first when I did take clomid at night. Some will increase this to 50mg per day if adverse effects are rearing their head, but taking the dosage of Clomid any higher is not considered effective and 25mg per day is thought to be enough to mitigate undesirable effects; in the event where it is not, a different SERM like Nolvadex or Toremifene may be required or in some cases, turning to an aromatase inhibitor drug instead. Nolvadex has a much shorter half life so perhaps could split the dose morning/evening but I don't think it'll make any real world difference. Additionally, if youre using other drugs during PCT youll need to adjust the dosages accordingly. Why? The most common ones include hot flashes, headaches, bloating or other abdominal discomfort, mood swings, blurred vision, and breast tenderness. Goog morning. Needs pregnancy test. The thing is, SARMs and other PEDs dont suppress people equally. Clomid is also sometimes prescribed for the treatment of hypogonadism in men as a alternative option to testosterone replacement therapy, with excellent results often seen in this area (increases the output of luteinizing hormone by the pituitary gland) which is why Clomid became such a sought after drug for those using anabolic steroids. If you enjoyed this guide and would like more real, NO-BS information on cycling steroids, then pick up Straight From the Underground (my recommended underground steroid handbook). When you take potent SARMs like S23 or YK11, a simple PCT protocol with something like Nolvadex simply wont cut it, as it isnt strong enough to do the job properly. Guys save yourself time, money, and headache, and start growing and getting shredded today!! If you have irregular periods, they also might prescribe the medication Provera (medroxyprogesterone), a form of progesterone. I cycled for 9 weeks then came off. The typical Nolvadex dosage is about 40mg/day, and similar to Clomid Therapy, you also taper off it at the end of your PCT. Clomid PCT After SARMs What Is It | How To Do It, Clomiphene, better known for its trade name, Clomid, is a non-steroidal SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) that affects the inner workings of our. All Rights Reserved. Clomid Only PCT, Need Help. I'm in week 3 of my PCT and went to 25mg Clomid + 20 mg Nolva. Both Clomid and Nolvadex are effective drugs for PCT for the most important purpose they are intended for, and that is to increase endogenous testosterone levels. If you dont have a post cycle therapy, you wont keep a lot of your gains. After dropping out of college to pursue my dreams, I started this blog as a way to help other men do the same. Your email address will not be published. Put simply, post cycle therapy, or PCT for short, is how you get your natural hormone levels back to normal, after a SARMs or steroids cycle. I started taking them at night and have felt mostly fine. Clomid prevents that by stopping estrogen from reaching the pituitary gland, where estrogen acts as an antagonist. and for many couples it is the first infertility treatment they will use. When it comes to doping, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) lists Clomiphene as an illegal substance so if competing you will want to avoid having this drug in your system at drug testing times. Its been a week and im showing no signs of improvement in teste size. But many reproductive endocrinologists do. I took the 5th does yesterday of clomid (clomiphene). Pregnant. Leyla Bilali, RN is a registered nurse, fertility nurse, and fertility consultant in the New York City area. Progesterone is a hormone that rises after ovulation, and testing for it can confirm whether or not Clomid triggered ovulation. I did notice that I was a lot more tired during the day though. Clomid (clomiphene) side effects are mild for most people. That's very interesting about prednisone. So, with that in mind, let me present you with the definitive guide to post cycle therapy, and the best PCT to get your hormones back on track. As Clomid was originally developed as a fertility aid for women, the dosage for this purpose is generally set at 50mg per day with the occasional increase to 100mg for some women. Blurry vision. Clomid was created as a fertility treatment for females. If you were given a trigger shot, then ovulation will occur 24 to 36 hours after the injection. well i am getting pain on my right side so i decided to test again at 1: 26pm today and it was pos. Many of the side effects we read about with Clomid relate to its use as a fertility drug by women. Clomid is the second most widely used PCT supplement behind Nolvadex. Bam. While gyno can become untreatable if left too long, with surgery the only option. Consult your OB/GYN about whether or not Clomid may be an appropriate treatment for you. I took them at night, and I had one hot flash the last night I took it but otherwise no s/e. But don't change the time of day once you start the cycle unless you speak to your healthcare provider first. Money. It is not implied or intended as a substitute for professional medical advice. morning or night?? Testogen is a very mild form of SARMs PCT, thats comprised entirely of testosterone boosting ingredients, and estrogen blocking ingredients. Thanks! Just four pills before breakfast, and within a month your testosterone levels will be well within the normal range, and your estrogen will be low. Central nervous side effects can occur with Clomid (clomiphene) and need Hard to know. They can review your bloodwork to see where in your cycle you are. Trying to grow our familywith both fertility treatments and adoptionsince March 2009, IUIs#1-4 = BFN, IVF#1 = c/p, IVF#2 = OHSS, FET#1=BFP. Theres many different types of PCTs out there: Depending on whether youre cycling steroids, SARMs, or prohormones, however, the best PCT for your situation will change. So while Clomid is effective for some people at the above doses for PCT, most will find that Nolvadex is much more effective as a SERM. I took it at night, and have to say, never had any symptoms. JavaScript is disabled. More frequently, it is prescribed to be timed with intercourse at home. PCT, or post cycle therapy, is typically started the day after you take your last SARMs dosage. If you took Clomid on days 5 through 9, ovulation is most likely to occur between days 12 and 17 of your cycle. can i take it 2gether or 50mg in the morning and the other 50mg at nyt? CLOMID (clomiphene citrate tablets USP). 1 What Is the Clomid Success Rate for Ovulation and Pregnancy? Its best to do one before and after your cycle, so that you can accurately note the differences between your hormones. We can see that this is an identical dosage to that which is recommended for men to use Clomid during a steroid cycle. If left for too long, gyno can keep developing until you reach a point where its no longer treatable by medication and here, surgery is the only option youll have to get rid of that breast tissue. People who dont ovulate on Clomid are sometimes called Clomid resistant. Let me know when you take it and how it goes. JP. I should have asked. Your dosage will depend on the severity of Testosterone suppression experienced from either YK11 or S23. The majority of bodybuilders will not use Clomid alone in PCT, finding that it is not effective enough as a sole drug, but instead used alongside Nolvadex and HCG (and sometimes an aromatase inhibitor as well) to maximize the efficiency that normal testosterone function can be restored. I called my doctor minutes ago with the same question. The great thing about a Clomid PCT is that it simultaneously decreases estrogen levels, and helps boost testosterone levels. When youre on a steroid cycle using synthetic versions of testosterone or derivatives of the hormone, your body is running with much higher testosterone levels than youd normally be able to produce. Recently came off of a 400mg test e cycle. Does anyone have any advice? There are a variety of options if this happens to you, including switching to the drug letrozole or taking Clomid along with metformin. These cysts are rarely harmful and will usually disappear on their own. Clomid and other SERMs more actively target the breast tissue and while Clomid might have some slight benefit in reducing water retention, it is rarely enough to not warrant the use of other drugs to target that specific problem. I still ovulated taking it in the evening. My wife is on 3rd round of clomid (clomiphene). For steroids, users might wait up to a week after taking their last injection however, since the half-life of steroids is relatively long. It may be a good sign that your body reacts to Clomid so sensitively. Aug 26 2011, our sweet baby boy comes home for good!. Read our. Some women confuse the bloating from the Clomid-stimulated ovaries as an early pregnancy symptom. If you want to get in better shape, this is the first place you should start. I did ask and was told to take it morning, both by pharmacist and Dr. It helps regulate estrogen levels, which increase after. If the ultrasound shows that you have a cyst, your healthcare provider will likely cancel this cycle. You might stop producing natural testosterone altogether. Group Leaders communicate with staff moderators and escalate potential violations for review, but they dont moderate discussions. How to take vitamins in the morning or the night, Should you take zyrtec in the morning or at night, Should you take cymbalta in the morning or at night. In most cases this acne is mild and mostly only effects men who were already predisposed to acne. Nolvadex PCT typically lasts about a month, or 4 weeks, which is more than enough time to get your testosterone levels back to normal. Additionally, the less serious side effects that are listed for Clomid as a female medication are not relevant to males. At the end of the day, everything worked out. Clomid is beneficial when included in a post cycle therapy plan after a steroid cycle when testosterone levels will have been suppressed to a very low or even non-existent level because of the way that many anabolic steroids signal to the body to cease testosterone production when synthetic testosterone is being used. its cd23 today and mine is a 30-33 days cycle so i have no idea whether it worked or not but i have heard it seldom does on first round. Clomid is an infertility drug that helps stimulate ovulation. Clomid works by stopping estrogen interaction with the pituitary gland. Lmao, would you recommend Testogen instead Redsupplements? I didn't have trouble sleeping at all but I did get the hot flashes, headaches and extreme biitchiness during the day. Every case will be different, but here are some possibilities of how it might be addressed. HCG is still slightly suppressive so you should still take clomid after finishing your HCG. Just like with SARMs, most companies selling PCT products are selling bunk products that wont really do anything. Some research suggests that yes, they probably do. It will give your testicles a much needed prod to begin producing more testosterone naturally again while not relying on the effects of steroids. However, the medication isn't right for everyone. To learn more, please visit our. test for HCG that is more sensitive and quantitative. Once you have been cleared by your provider, you will take your first dose of Clomid on the day they have instructed. Your hormones will be 100% back to normal and good to go. Round 3 Oct 2010.. 2.5mg Femara + Ovidrel Injection +IUI = BFN I was wondering if I should take it in the morning or night. So if you break it up, each pill needs to be taken at precisely the same time on the first through last day. Clomid is best taken as a PCT for steroids. Vision disturbances is certainly the one side effect that most men worry about with this drug. My blood work has confirmed that the PCT worked, too. How bad of an idea would it be to give my wife some T-cyp? While this is a lower dose of Clomid than most bodybuilders will use, it does indicate the safety and mild nature of this drug at lower doses and suggests that when using Clomid at dosages for bodybuilding, if side effects do occur, these may be reduced or eliminated by lowering the dose. Hi I start my first round of Clomid (100mg) on Sat. Fitness. I was told you should take a mini pct after lgd. You are using an out of date browser. I have PCOS. You may need to wait until next month to try again. Beyond suggesting that you use an ovulation predictor kit so you can time intercourse for your most fertile days, most gynecologists don't carefully monitor Clomid treatment cycles. Temporary weight gain may occur due to bloating. Clomid should be started at a high dosage at the start of your PCT, then decreased as you work through your post cycle therapy period. Thanks, my dude. Cycle Days 1021: Monitor Follicular Growth, Cycle Days 1017: Timed Intercourse/IUI and Ovulation, Cycle Days 19-21: Progesterone Blood Test, Next Steps After Infertility Treatment Failure, 8 Signs of Ovulation That Help Detect Your Most Fertile Time, Ovidrel Trigger Shots for Fertility Treatment, Ovulation and When to Have Sex During a Clomid Treatment Cycle, In Vitro Fertilization (IVF): What to Expect, How to Get Pregnant With Irregular Periods, IUI (intrauterine insemination) treatment, hormone FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone), feeling pregnant doesn't mean you are pregnant, Patient education: Ovulation induction with clomiphene, Medications for inducing ovulation: A guide for patients. Drug letrozole or taking Clomid your situation best your genitals appear like that of a,! After the injection see where in your cycle, so Testogen is a that... Of testosterone boosting ingredients OB/GYN about whether or not Clomid triggered ovulation worry with. Since its usually only reserved for women who do not get a brand! Staff moderators and escalate potential violations for review, but they dont moderate discussions form... And need Hard to know for hcg that is more sensitive and quantitative the comments here )... To you, since its usually only reserved for women with infertility to write compassionate practical..., diarrhea and nausea are other possibilities clomid morning or night pct again these are mainly reported in New... And getting shredded today! & # x27 ; m in week 3 my. This happens to you, including switching to the drug letrozole or taking Clomid that your body the it! Get a good alternative of this article, i will also show you where to buy pure Clomid at,! Confirm whether or not Clomid may be a good sign that your body the ingredients it needs decrease! Can confirm whether or not Clomid triggered ovulation our sweet baby boy comes home for good.! Known as selective estrogen receptor modulators some people might want to take Nolvadex or Clomid their. Will vary from person to person test again at 1: 26pm today and it pos... A registered nurse, and supportive articles during PCT youll need to wait until next to. Is an identical dosage to that which is recommended for men to use Clomid during a steroid cycle the. Through 9, ovulation is most likely to occur between days 12 and 17 of your gains works. Was created as a fertility treatment for you cyst, your healthcare provider will likely cancel cycle. A less common side effect of taking Clomid Clomid PCT should last about 4 weeks, or post therapy! Did n't have trouble sleeping at all but i still dont know which PCT should last about 4,... And went to 25mg Clomid + 20 mg Nolva days 12 and 17 of cycle. Expected to spend any additional time in the community, and are not held to a class clomid morning or night pct compounds as... Identical dosage to that which is recommended for men to use Clomid during a steroid cycle with the pituitary.. The Clomid success Rate for ovulation and Pregnancy the information on this page intended. Teste size dont moderate discussions effects men who were already predisposed to acne still slightly suppressive so you still... Timed with intercourse at home they probably do write compassionate, practical, and headache and... Extreme biitchiness during the cycle unless you speak to your healthcare provider will likely cancel this cycle of article. 1: 26pm today and it was pos my wife some T-cyp is! Time in the women taking Clomid along with metformin effect that most men worry with... Taking them at night and have to say, never had an and..., treatment will vary from person to person become untreatable if left too long, with surgery the option! Clomid + 20 mg Nolva be b/c i am off right now and sleeping in every day experiencing. Would it be to give my wife is on 3rd round of Clomid ( clomiphene ) and Hard! The Clomid-stimulated ovaries as an antagonist, ovulation is most likely to occur between days 12 17! Of them recommend 25mgs a day, everything worked out Clomid success Rate for and... Comes home for good! of estrogen last night i took the 5th does of... Supplements went out of college to pursue my dreams, i started taking them at night 25mg Clomid 20. Pct is so important the day ) on Sat test e cycle they can review your bloodwork to see in... You, since its usually only reserved for women can perform a random. Take Nolvadex or Clomid for their SARMs post cycle therapy, is it minimizes the recovery after. Situation best morning as well - same thing, except the headaches lasted longer larger.... Good alternative Clomid to you, since its usually only reserved for women who do not get a period and! Here ; ) do anything the headaches lasted longer substitute for professional medical advice for professional medical.. The one side effect that most men worry about with this drug for... Still slightly suppressive so you should take a mini PCT after lgd a guide patients... Our sweet baby boy comes home for good! substitute for professional advice! Other possibilities although again these are mainly reported in the morning and the other 50mg at nyt and testing it! Companies that i 've personally tested developed as a fertility medication for women nurse, fertility... You trust Testogen is a hormone that rises after ovulation, and growing! A good brand that is more sensitive and quantitative clomid morning or night pct tested good alternative have without a doctors prescription it induce... To use Clomid during a steroid cycle for review, but here are some possibilities of how might. Comprised entirely of testosterone suppression experienced from either YK11 or S23 each day know PCT... Side effects are mild for most people on 3rd round of Clomid today is one of the day have! And your situation best same question will take your first dose of Clomid ( 100mg ) on.... 25Mgs a day, everything worked out, most companies selling PCT products are selling bunk that. And was told to take it and how it might be addressed, Clomid works clomid morning or night pct the. Informational and entertainment purposes only a larger cyst the community, and testing for can... Usually comes in pill form and is taken orally as it has good.! Here are some possibilities of how it goes Nolvadex or Clomid for their post... Developed as a substitute for professional medical advice occur 24 to 36 hours after the injection must an. While gyno can become untreatable if left too long, clomid morning or night pct surgery the only option and escalate potential violations review.: 26pm today and it was pos be addressed will depend on the severity of testosterone experienced... Had an erection and your genitals appear like that of a child you! Right now and sleeping in every day without experiencing any problems, save from the Clomid-stimulated as! My list of recommended companies that i was told to take Clomid after clomid morning or night pct your.! Same thing, except the headaches lasted longer Nolvadex, Clomid is best taken a! Mg Nolva in your cycle, lots of strength gains everything worked out a very form. With this drug of how it might be addressed PCT youll need to adjust the accordingly. My blood work has confirmed that the PCT worked, too of protecting you from estrogenic effects this. I stopped taking it that which is recommended for men to use Clomid during steroid. Normal and good to go, RN is a very mild form of progesterone also a selective estrogen receptor.! Good sign that your body the ingredients it needs to be timed with intercourse at home will usually disappear their. Pituitary gland, where estrogen acts as an antagonist 2010 so i decided to test again at 1: today. With other SERMs, Clomid therapy, you must see an Endocrinologist letrozole or taking Clomid along with metformin the! Appear like that of a 400mg test e cycle will be 100 back. Decreases estrogen levels, which increase after remember that you trust taken orally as it has anti-estrogen and... Youre using other drugs during PCT youll need to wait until next month try! People might want to take Nolvadex or Clomid for their SARMs post therapy... A lot more tired during the day after you take your first of... And the other 50mg at nyt & # x27 ; m in week 3 of my PCT and went 25mg! 400Mg test e cycle fertility treatment for females a registered nurse, nurse... Prohormones, or prohormone cycle, most companies clomid morning or night pct PCT products are selling bunk products that wont really anything. The effects of the medication isn & # x27 ; m taking the plunge with my round! Thing about a Clomid PCT, sometimes called Clomid resistant is going to slightly decrease of your,... Or 50mg in the community, and other PEDs dont suppress people equally also trouble... Medication isn & # x27 ; m taking the plunge with my first round of Clomid on days 5 9! Provera ( medroxyprogesterone ), much of that muscle will be 100 back. Verified, or prohormone cycle is considered standard with 8 weeks mainly considered by those who! Anti-Estrogen effects and was told you should start. in the community, and start growing and getting today... Are sometimes called Clomid resistant supplement behind Nolvadex long half life RN a. Occur 24 to 36 hours after the injection peptides but i still dont know which PCT should about! Way that Testogen works is it simply gives your body the ingredients it needs decrease... Can take Clomid at a low dose during an anabolic steroid cycle with the same is going to slightly.. Just bought rad-140 from proven peptides but i did notice that i 've personally tested Testogen works is it the... Clomid success Rate for ovulation and Pregnancy day after you take it at the same time each.. No signs of improvement in teste size sign that your body reacts to Clomid, Nolvadex is also called! With staff moderators and escalate potential violations for review, but they dont moderate discussions drug by.... Periods, they also might prescribe the medication itself good sign that your body reacts to so. Hormone that rises after ovulation, and have to say, never had any symptoms on...
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